Fire Watch Episode 5: Meet the Women Changing How the Army Treats Female Soldiers

Episode Introduction

Who are the women shaking up Army rules? Today, junior ranks are leading the charge to make change in the military. Not only for hair policy, but for women's reproductive health and in tackling the pervasive sexual assault issue that has been plaguing the military for decades.

On this episode, we're going to talk to some of those soldiers who have spoken up and found ways to shape policies aimed at making the service more supportive for women and families so that soldiers can focus on winning wars.

Main Topics

• Drew F. Lawrence, Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge, 1st Lt. Kait Abbott discuss policy.
• Hosts Drew F. Lawrence and Rebecca Kheel talk with Navy reporter, Konstantin Toropin about other important military stories for September 16th.

Additional Resources

• The Female Soldier Insurgency that Helped Rewrite the Army's Rules on Parenthood

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Transcript:

SPEAKERS

WACs Presenter, 1st Lt. Kait Abbott, Army Video, Drew Lawrence, Tucker Carlson, Congressman, Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge, Konstantin Toropin, Senator Ted Cruz, Rebecca Kheel

Army Video

There goes one of those petticoat soldiers now. Yeah, my sister wants to join the WACs. What do you think of that? She's crazy what the devil is a woman want to be a soldier for?

Drew Lawrence

Seventy-five years ago, the Women's Army Corps or WACs was established amid the infamous manpower shortages of World War Two. And here you might think about iconic images of Rosie the Riveter, flexing muscle over American steel bound for war. But the WACs led the charge for women in that war. Since then, in over the decades, women who volunteered to serve in the military have been criticized, politicized and often demonized by their fellow Americans.

Tucker Carlson

So we've got new hairstyles and maternity flight suits, pregnant women are going to fight our wars. It's a mockery of the US military, while China's military becomes more masculine as...

Drew Lawrence

That was Fox's Tucker Carlson addressing his millions of primetime viewers. But at each corner, those women -- all of whom have volunteered to put on the uniform -- have carved their own way in the services, just as their predecessors have done.

Army Video

A you two armchair generals on the porch here something more for you to think about. Listen, General Eisenhower said, in many jobs WACs do the work of two men.

WACs Presenter

We know that the rumors about the WACs are so much hot air. The same old hair do the same old hair do. This nonsense, our hairdress is up to us as long as it's neat, smart and off the collar.

Drew Lawrence

Today, junior ranks are leading the charge to make change in the army, not only for hair policy, but for women's reproductive health, and in tackling the pervasive sexual assault issue that has been plaguing the military for decades. On this episode, we're going to talk to some of those soldiers, ones who have spoken up and found ways to shape policies aimed at making the service more supportive for women and families so that soldiers can focus on winning wars. In 2016, Staff Sergeant Nicole Edge had a miscarriage. And she was only given two days of convalescent leave to recover.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

So I went to the ER, they did an ultrasound they they told me at that time that there was no heartbeat, the baby had stopped growing about two to three weeks prior to that day. And I was given some medication and sent on my way.

Drew Lawrence

Edge wanted to do something, not just for her. But for moms and other women who may have gone through what she went through.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

I was sitting in my living room and I realized I had no idea what I was doing with being a mom in the army. And I just wanted a space that if I had questions, I would be able to go to this space and ask them.

Drew Lawrence

Enter the Army Mom Life Group, a Facebook page moderated by Edge and other military mothers. The group sought change and support for women in the service, especially when it came to parenthood.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

I asked them if you could change one policy, what would you change and we had hundreds of hundreds of comments within an hour.

Drew Lawrence

The effort was a grassroots movement -- an uncommon phenomenon in an organization built on top down orders. And other women to like First Lieutenant Kait Abbott helped change those rules for women at the highest levels of the army. What are these policies? Why do they matter? And who are the women who helped change them? For Military.com, my name is Drew Lawrence. It is September 16. And this is Firewatch.

Army Video

American women have always taken their full share of responsibility. Today, as in the past, all women will meet the challenge.

Drew Lawrence

An estimated 150,000 women joined the WACs during World War Two. You've been hearing old Army videos produced as part of their messaging about their integration and history. Many WACs took jobs as communications experts, clerks, mechanics, medical professionals, air traffic controllers, and many other jobs

Congressman

...regulation according to regulation and the Uniform Code of Military Justice...

Drew Lawrence

And their integration did not come without indignation; the Army itself recognize that, taking aim at naysayers in the Capitol in its messaging.

Army Video

Congressional opposition to granting women their rightful place, died hard.

Congressman

I think it is a reflection upon the courageous man heart of the country to pass a law inviting women to join the armed forces in order to win battle. Think I'll tell you what has become of the manhood of America.

Senator Ted Cruz

On these woke lefty bureaucrats and lefty media reporters trying to destroy the American military trying to turn it in, into frankly, a bunch of pansies. The job of the military...

Drew Lawrence

That last voice was Texas Senator Ted Cruz on Fox last year, deriding an Army recruiting ad that featured the true story of a female lower enlisted soldier raised by her two moms. As often is the case with structural changes, especially ones that are perceived as cultural, many of the lowest levels of bureaucracy feel that pressure, and few might step up to do something about it.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

I am Staff Sergeant Nicole Edge, I am a 68X or a behavioral health NCO in the United States Army. I have two children and I'm a single mom, that is about...that's me.

Drew Lawrence

And as that mom of two, Edge understands the challenges of being a parent in the military.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

There are days that I'm sitting outside of the daycare at 530, waiting for them to open so that I can drop my kids off and be at PT on time. And so once I put them to bed, then I stay up late and I'm grading essays or preparing for the next day if I didn't get to do so at work, checking the group chat, sending out notes to the students, sending out notices to the other SGLs...

Drew Lawrence

And she also knew what it meant to experience loss while in the Army.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

So you know, I went back to my barracks room, I know that my future is changing. And my, you know, my child is inside of me but not alive. So it was very emotionally damaging. And then as I had a DNC, which is where they go in, they clean out everything so that there's no infection. So I just went through one of the most traumatic events of my life. And you only gave me two days of con leave. At the time I was working in Child and Family behavioral health services... So as I'm sitting there, processing my own miscarriage and trying to work through all my feelings and emotions and get my life back on track, I'm having to listen to spouses come in and watch them cry and hear them talk about how they're handling their miscarriages. And as the person who works at the hospital, you have to keep your emotions together and you have to remain intact. Everyone from my work asked me, 'Hey, how's the baby?' Or 'Hey, you know, is the baby growing? Have you felt the kick yet?' yatta yatta yatta. And you're just like, 'oh, actually, I lost the baby. So thanks for that reminder.' It's definitely not something that I hope for anyone to ever go through. But unfortunately I know it's going to happen. It happens everyday in the group. And it was one of the reasons why I wanted the miscarriage policy to get approved so badly.

Drew Lawrence

Military.com's own Steve Beynon reported in his piece, The Female Soldier Insurgency that Helped Rewrite the Army's Rules on Parenthood. The Army actually listened to these parents and their problems. When Sergeant Major of the Army Michael Grinston asked for feedback on parenthood policies on Twitter, Edge and the Army Mom Life Group were spring loaded. They were ready. And it worked.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

Because we actually asked a while back for miscarriage stories. And we were having women who had similar stories to mine say that, you know, they just miscarried on a Friday, they came to work on Monday and their commands, were making them take a record a APFTs. I tweeted at him and I said SMA, we have a document inside of our group right now that has all of these policies on one word document, we would love to send it to you if this is what you're trying to do. And he messaged me back and he said, 'Oh, I thought these were original proposals.' And I said, 'Well, give me a couple of weeks and I can have a white paper to you. And you know, we would love to get you original proposals.'

Drew Lawrence

According to Steve, those new policies would affect hundreds of 1000s of Army parents, roughly a quarter of pregnancies end in miscarriage. And thanks to that grassroots movement, women who experienced one will be allowed up to 42 days of convalescent leave to recover a significant improvement to the two that Edge had.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

And I think it was at that moment where I realized senior leaders are going to listen to us. Senior leaders do care. They are willing to hear us out and possibly change these policies that haven't been aren't working for us.

Drew Lawrence

Critics often like to point to these improvements as a distraction from the military's primary mission of fighting wars. But Grinston and others said that the Army is capable of multitasking, balancing the needs of the force with the needs of the mission. And for Edge, it also means long term relief for burdens long-bared by military parents.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

I would say look at the quality of life that parents before us have had and the amount of stress and pressure this has taken off of not only mothers but also fathers serving; fathers have never, ever been taken into the equation, especially when it comes to miscarriages. So you have the mothers who got, you know, X amount of time, but the fathers got nothing. And now, they do get time off to be able to be there and not only grieve and mourn for themselves, but also be there to support their significant others. The military can bounce the 12 month affirm it back and forth so at least one parent is always there at the beat, or the beginning of the first year of their child's life. So not only is this good for mothers and fathers are for mothers, but also for fathers. But it's also going to be able to help those, especially single parents, and dual military parents be able to better serve their country, as well as be a successful parent.

Drew Lawrence

I wanted to ask, was there anyone who gave you pushback? Or was there any noise around you about going to the Sergeant Major of the Army directly with policies?

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

I didn't get any pushback, I was honestly really scared to tell my chain of command that I did it. So we actually wrote the white paper and sent it up. And it wasn't until it got a little bit more noise. So not only didn't go to the sergeant major the army, it also went to the TRADOC DCG and the TRADOC Command Sergeant Major. And it was at that point that was like, Okay, this is getting this is going to spread. So I should probably tell my command. Hey, I just want you to know if you read this paper and you see my name. I would like you to hear it from me before you hear from somebody else. So I did go to my first sergeant and I I told him like, Hey, first sergeant. So this is something that I did, please don't be mad at me. And I I've told him, you know everything about the group that I created, how I wound up, you know, tweeting at the SMA, and he wasn't mad. He said, You know, you did it on a public platform where the SMA is very present on so it's not like you sent him a direct email, on Outlook, you know, you tweeted at him on Twitter, and he told you to DM him. So that's completely different. So he wasn't mad, he was very supportive. He actually asked me for the paper so that he could read it, he wanted to see what we had for presented to the SMA. My leadership was actually very, very thankful that we did this. I mean, you have your trolls, you know on Twitter that say that we should be working on something more important than pregnancy, postpartum and parenting policies, yada, yada, yada. And I always retort with, you know, you can work on multiple policy changes at once. It doesn't mean that you know, just because we're working on pregnancy, parenting and postpartum regulations, that SHARP and EO, 670-1 updates, and all, you know, endless other things have all stopped and that we're all working on this one thing, every there's different teams for every policy.

Drew Lawrence

And for some people who may not be in the military, it might be -- I'd posit -- a leap for them to say how you know, maternity care or parenthood policy changes, affects our ability to fight wars.

Staff Sgt. Nicole Edge

I would say again, only point zero 6% out of 100% of the force is pregnant or postpartum at any given time. So the amount of women who are in fathers who are not able to deploy because of the 12 month deployment deferment. It's so minimal, that it should doesn't really affect us going into combat and winning wars. And in the instance that you feel that because one or two people in a formation couldn't make it because they were pregnant postpartum or a parent, if we're losing wars, because we're missing two people from our formation, we have a bigger problem than what we thought. If you feel that there is a regulation that isn't working, whether it be in your unit, your battalion, your brigade, your installation across the army, find some way to bring it up to someone but if you see something that isn't working, bring it up. And just because the first person tells, you know, Don't stop, keep going until you're able to make that change because that's exactly what we did.

Drew Lawrence

These changes didn't only revolve around parenthood. First Lieutenant Kait Abbott, another woman shaking a policy in the Army was working at one of the highest levels of the force. She was tackling long standing issues like outdated hair regulations for women sexual assault, and generally providing console for leaders who might not understand the fast changing culture of the Army's primary demographics: Young people. Okay, well, Kait, thank you so much for joining us here on on Firewatch. I hear you have your dog in the background. That's okay. Totally, totally good.

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

Yeah, I'm so sorry about that.

Drew Lawrence

No, we always we welcome our furry friends here on Firewatch. It's okay that you were on the Army's people first task force. What is that? And why does it exist?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

So the people first task force was created in direct response to the Fort Hood report that came out after the death of the Vanessa Guillen. So basically, the mission of the task force was to implement all of the recommendations and changes out of Fort Hood. But then, when the DOD, IRC, which is the independent review commission for sexual assault came out, a lot of the changes got enveloped into that. And what we didn't do is we didn't try to duplicate efforts, since, you know, the DoD was saying these are the recommended changes that needed to happen across the force. So we nested underneath them for a lot of the changes in the past year.

Drew Lawrence

And tell me a little bit about your work on that task force. What exactly did you do?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

So I initially got brought on by name requests from Army senior leaders, because of a vocal social media presence. From a National Guard perspective, I was on title 32 orders, which meant that I had a lot more freedom than active duty officers have or even reserve officer has, for being able to speak my mind a lot on issues, I got noticed by some senior leaders and I, after Fort Hood came out, I was, in essence, just screaming into the void processing. And I've always been a verbal processor. And that was just for me, where I felt comfortable doing it. It was it was on Twitter. And after that, I my name got passed along when the task force was being stood up. And I received a phone call and asked if I wanted the job.

Drew Lawrence

And so when you did get that job, what, what exactly did you do? What were some of the policies that you worked on? That you were able to take some of your the things that you had said on social media and bring to that task force?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

So initially, what we were doing is we were doing the direct response to Fort Hood. Right? So we were addressing a lot of the issues regarding the SHARP process. So sexual harassment, assault response and prevention. And a lot of what we focused on was the response effort. Yes, prevention is a massive issue. But response is where our focus was because there were so many things that were failed in the response effort in the Sharpe program writ large that we needed to adjust systemically. So we ended up creating the fusion directorate pilot program, which has just recently become available to start receiving victims. And they are been reporting back to the task force, that it's been an increase in communication across the program, there's better understanding, there's a lot of really great lessons learned that are coming out of that. And the pilot is slated to go for about a year. So April 2023, if I remember correctly, is when they're going to ask for a decision point about whether it will be moved to Army wide based off of how victims are responding to it, how sharp professionals are responding to it, how, how it's helping victims, and that was really our main focus was, how do we have a victim centered approach that is trauma informed? And that helps you reduce the big issues that we were seeing with the SHARP program?

Drew Lawrence

And for those who might not know what, what exactly is the fusion directorate, pilot program, and how might it be different from other or previous army sexual assault policies?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

So the fusion directorate pilot program is essentially a it is a physical location where all of the response mechanisms are housed together. So a lot of the big issues that we noticed, or were being told that were issues within the forest when it came to sexual assault was that there was a lack of communication between the response efforts. So when I say response efforts, I mean, Cid, which is your investigative arm, your legal arm, there were cases that were just being held up. For however long there were command decisions that weren't making sense to victims. So what we were aiming to do with this program is to increase communication up and down the line, so that victims are kept apprised of their case, at every change at every turn. As always, the big thing is a lot of victims are reporting that, hey, I reported this a year ago, and my case is still ongoing. You know, what the hell.

Drew Lawrence

And I want to take a step back and get your thoughts on the culture that you were walking into when you're making those changes. You know, the Army is, as you know, is roughly 85%. Male. It's an institution that is steeped in centuries long traditions, you know, what was it like stepping into that space to make those changes.

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

It was exhilarating. I always loved to challenge the, or the National Guard has its own specific culture that is significantly different than active duty. So that was definitely an adjustment for me, just adjusting to what it meant to be a soldier 24/7 What that expectation was, and how to kind of conduct myself outside of duty hours. So what I was used to was, you know, when I was done with my drill weekend, I, I was KaitAbbott, right? Like I did not owe anything to the army I didn't have I wasn't subject to UCMJ, I could shout my opinions from the rooftop, and there was really no legal repercussions to any of that. Whereas adjusting to being an active duty, the idea of being a soldier, even when I left the office was a hard and mental leap for me to adjust to.

Drew Lawrence

And I want to dig into that a little bit more, because you talked about the going from natural guard to going to the active duty side, but you know, was it? Did you experience any barriers or any pushback, whether it, you know, be within the Army or from naysayers outside of the Army, when you were going in to try to make these policy changes?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

You know, I really liked to say yes, because that makes it for a really good story. Right? You know, I was welcomed with open arms, senior leaders, were chomping at the bit to, you know, address the changes in the Fort Hood, there was a lot of just desire to change, which, exactly, as you said, right, you know, an institution that known for its change. So that was surprising to me. I was brought on to the task force to help kind of fix or at least provide guidance in that generational divide. Right. So there were a lot of times in meetings where senior leaders or just older professionals would be like, well, what if we said this, and I'm just like, hold on, you can't say that. This is how it's going to be taken. Or just helping address, you know, kind of like, what motivates the younger generation.

Drew Lawrence

And so if you were talking to someone who may not know much about the military, or kind of intricacies of its culture, how would you explain some of the barriers, if you consider the barriers women may face in the service?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

So the biggest barrier, you know, off the bat, like sexism and misogyny are alive and well, those are not going to go away because of policies. I mean, there's definitely a lot that can be done, you know, we can mitigate. But you were never going to out policy, the human condition condition. And this is where it'll come down to leadership. But, you know, women are going to face barriers every day, just simply by byproduct of being women. But women are also breaking barriers every day, they are leaving from the front, they are crushing ranger school, they are making policy to the most significant policy changes that have happened for the army, progressive policy wise, have been led by women. So it's not to say that men can't or shouldn't or won't just simply an observation that women are there. And, you know, we can still do everything that our men can do as well.

Drew Lawrence

And you helped develop the female hair regulation policy last year. For those who might not know about those regulations. Where did they stand before you started working on them? And where are they now?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

So the Army came out last January, not last year, January 2021, with updated hair or recommendations to the AR 670-1, which is the wear and appearance of the army uniform regulation and that came out and it was hyped up for weeks leading up to it. And then you know, Army senior leaders got up they made their announcements. And a lot of women were just really let down because there were some adjustments that were really great. Previously, you know, we couldn't wear any form of nail polish. We couldn't you know, have earrings we couldn't do a lot of these like small feminine feeling things that really just kind of give us like a little bit of femininity in uniform. And what everybody was really hoping for were ponytails and braids. Ultimately, at the end of the day, that's what, you know, junior enlisted soldiers wanted when junior officers wanted. And it just, it didn't happen. And when, when that change came out, we were all very much right down. So when we kind of streamline the effort to try to change that policy, again, that was our big motivation was, we want ponytails and braids, like this is culturally, something that we need. It is, you know, medically something that we need. So the big, big driver was the fact that women suffer from alopecia from years of having their hair and super tight buttons. And for those who may not know what that condition is, it's where your hair basically like falls out, which you can actually claim as a VA medical claim, service connected. So what we're trying to do is why, why do that? Why had that response mechanism, when we can prevent that wholeheartedly. When we can give women the ability to still be tactically sufficient, have their uniforms fit better, and be more proficient at warfighting and allow them to have their hair down.

Drew Lawrence

I know that when did pause the hair policy initially launched? Some women were actually harangue for following the new regulation, because, you know, some leaders maybe ignored the policy or didn't know about it. Was that a common thing that you had heard? Or what were some of the other responses that you noticed from the change in policy?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

So I would argue it was probably more ignorance than it was maliciousness. There was, so the big, big issue that came out was a lack of clarity, it's in the language and the new regulation, regarding braids, about whether women were allowed to have two braids or just one. So there was There ended up being a story about that, because there was an individual who took to social media to just again, you know, kind of complain, and she wasn't really looking for it to become a big thing. But as social media does, it did become a big thing. And they ultimately resulted in clarification of the regulation, which was very helpful for the force.

Drew Lawrence

So the public has come to know sexual misconduct in the military through cases like specialists Vanessa Gibbons, who was murdered in 2020, by someone who had sexually harassed her. The public has also been aware of the abysmal sexual assault numbers that are are coming out of the services. You know, as someone who is working on remedying those issues, how do you how do you addressed the larger issue of sexual assault? And reconcile it with the public's understanding of it?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

Yes, that's a really big question, right? Like, I'd love to be able to say, this one policy is going to change it. But ultimately, that's not the case. And I think the public is going to have to understand and you know, this goes for Congress, this goes for soldiers, you can't turn a ship on a dime. And I don't say that as a cop out. I say that as a very pragmatic person, right, like incremental change is going to happen, because that's the way the ship is going right now. And it comes down, really to unit level leadership. That is how we prevent these types of things from happening, unit level leadership, cultural leadership, not allowing things to happen. And you just watch them as an individual. It's in there's so many other things that go into it. It's not just that right, like, obviously, accountability for people who commit heinous crimes is hugely important. But ultimately, it is going to take time. At the end of the day. Cultural change takes time. And it involves every single person being committed to it, removing the people who are not committed to it, and building the culture within your unit that is acceptable. And beyond acceptable, that's something that people are going to want to send their sons and daughters to be a part of.

Drew Lawrence

How important is it that these policies come from women themselves?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

You know, I think it's great that women are involved, you know, with any type of change. It's definitely important that you have some of the most affected groups involved. So it's not coming, or at least being perceived to come from You know, old white men, right? Like that is so much of the danger because then it creates this perceived disconnect between senior leaders on the force. But at the end of the day, policies are going to happen. And there are feedback mechanisms that already exist. Social media is a great tool. But there are also legitimate feedback mechanisms to help senior leaders understand where the force is out what they're thinking, what they're feeling, and whether these policies are working.

Drew Lawrence

So women in the military are often at the receiving end of criticism when it comes to integration to the armed forces. Some critics, even ones in Congress or television see these changes, whether it's, you know, maternity policy or hair policy, as you know, I've heard a distraction, or unimportant or even as an erosion to traditional norms. How would you respond to that?

1st Lt. Kait Abbott

I think it's laughable. When people say that they're usually speaking from a very high horse after never having served, or they're focusing on the wrong things, we still have the most lethal fighting force in the world, all of the policies that are calling look, or progressive, or whatever catchy word of the day, is bumped. Those policies are all built on us maintaining the most lethal fighting force in the world, growing our force, and making them more combat effective. None of those policies that exists all of the people first initiatives, all of them are bent upon making soldiers lives easier, so that we can support them, their families, so that they can focus on the mission and get the job done.

Drew Lawrence

Hey, if you're enjoying this podcast, and you want to go ahead and subscribe, rate it, give us some feedback. Go ahead to Spotify, Apple wherever you get your podcasts and let us know. Let us know what you think we're always happy for the feedback. And if you'd like this podcast, you also might like the PCs podcast, which is hosted and produced by our executive editor Amy Bushatz She gives you the tips and tricks from experts on your next military move.

Rebecca Kheel

Welcome, everyone, as you know by now I am Rebecca keel, your congressional reporter and military.com You're joining us for the reporter roundtable with me, as always is Drew Lawrence. And joining us today is our Navy reporter Konstantin Toropin. And welcome, guys.

Drew Lawrence

Hey, thanks for having us.

Konstantin Toropin

Thank you.

Rebecca Kheel

Yeah, of course. Let's just jump right into our first story. Big news. Apparently, the war on terrorism is over. Or at the very least the National Defense Service Medal is going away. There was a memo that Secretary Austin put out saying that it's no longer going to be awarded. This was a metal that has been awarded to every service member during the time of war emergency since the Korean War, and now it is no longer. I made a joke just now about how it signifies the end of the war on terror. But through what does it actually mean for the global war on terror going forward?

Drew Lawrence

So Well, I think the first thing that we have to keep in mind is that there are still troops deployed to places like Syria and Iraq who are, are still very much involved in the so called War on Terror. But according to that memo, which you had mentioned, which was signed by Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, the award, which you know, is sometimes referred to as the pizza stain by troops will discontinue "The United States is no longer conducting large scale combat operations in designated geographic locations as a result of the terrorist attacks on the United States that occurred on September 11 2001." You know, this, this comes shortly after the DoD announcing that they will be more restrictive when awarding the Global War on Terrorism medal. So in short, yes, while there are still troops engaged in combating terrorism abroad, the scale of those operations is definitely reduced, especially after the withdrawal from Afghanistan. And I guess the Pentagon wanted the chest candy to match the times.

Rebecca Kheel

Yeah, this might just be my congressional nerd coming out. But when I read the memo and read that they somebody in the Pentagon put down on paper that there were no, you know, large scale combat operations occurring as a result of 9/11. My first thought was, what does that mean for the 2001 authorization for the use of military force? And to be clear, I've seen nobody in Congress raise that point. So I don't think it's in danger of being repealed. But I do think it does point to a disparate that you kind of alluded to where the rhetoric has changed, the symbolism is fading away. But in reality, the war authorization is still active. And we do still have troops deployed around the world because of that war authorization. So, you know, as the war on terrorism ending, or is the Biden administration just saying it's ending?

Konstantin Toropin

I mean, I would say the one thing I would add is in looking at how, certainly the Marine Corps talks about this issue, you know, I have noticed more and more, even on social media and in spaces where Marines talk amongst themselves, they are referring to themselves now as a peacetime force. So from the sort of on the ground perspective, this this is reflecting the perspective that servicemembers have that the war is over.

Drew Lawrence

I want to switch over to the word on the street from the US Marshals, and that is Fat Leonard is on the loose. I know it's a lot, but can you sum up, essentially the last 15 years worth of Navy contractor scandals and why we care so much about this man's escape from from house arrest.

Konstantin Toropin

Yeah, and you're absolutely right, Fat Leonard has been a by not a by word, but a term in Navy circles for going on a decade and a half. Because yeah, he is the principal head in this corruption scandal that goes back to the 2000s. And he is, as I said, a he was he was a contractor in Southeast Asia, who bribed all kinds of top Navy officials, we're talking about 123 Star admirals were sort of implicated in this sort of thing. And the scheme that he ran was basically bribing these people to send carriers Navy ships to ports where he had assets, supplies, and he would build the Navy. You know, things like overcharging them for divers to go in the water while the ship is important to you know, search for bombs that never really existed or there were no threats of their of eventually, the man gets arrested, he's brought to trial, the trial is going on for quite a while as trial trials often tend to do. And at one point, he convinces the judge to let him be on house arrest and to pay for his own security, if you will, while on house arrest. And fast forward to a few weeks ago and come to find out the the house is empty and his GPS mot ankle bracelet is on the floor and fat leonard is on the lam, I think as of September 10. So a few days ago, the US Marshals would like will will give you up to $40,000. for information leading to his apprehension.

Drew Lawrence

Rebecca, I wanted to switch to some army news here because, you know, we've talked about this before about soldiers and transfers in red states that have discriminatory laws against the LGBT community to include issues around abortion and other issues that affect soldiers primarily in red states. And there was some rhetoric that was coming out of the Army last week that, you know, kind of put a hole in some of the in some of the the hopes or some of the plans that maybe some servicemembers were expecting.

Rebecca Kheel

We reported, or more accurately, our Army reporter Steve Bannon reported back in May that army officials were privately considering tweaking what's called the compassionate reassignment policy. And that policy is normally used when there's some sort of like family emergency or medical emergency that would require a service member to move up the Tweak they were reportedly considering I would bet would have specified that service members could also request to move if they were in a state with discriminatory laws, specifically anti LGBTQ and anti abortion laws. But what happened last week is army Secretary McConville said at a conference hosted by defense one, basically, that that won't happen. Now what he did say is that soldiers can request to be stationed in a specific area. And if the army can accommodate that, they might, but the mission comes first. And so if the army needs you somewhere else other than the place you requested to be that they will deny your request, and you will be based where they need to be.

Drew Lawrence

And so, you know, that's kind of parallel some of the rhetoric that you were seeing coming out of Congress am I correct?

Rebecca Kheel

Yeah, exactly. There was mostly GOP criticism of this reported policy change that, you know, the military mission comes first and when you start moving around people, based on whether they agree with the state law or not But then that becomes an issue, especially because the military mostly does business in red states

Drew Lawrence

and Konstantine, I know, you've reported on this and it still might be fresh. You know, what, what are what are servicemembers kind of thinking about this?

Konstantin Toropin

So it's hard to say I, you know, it's interesting, because this does seem to be a conversation happening more in the halls of Congress and among leaders than among service members, at least in as much as that sort of trickles down to publicly available sort of social media conversations. But I will say it's interesting that the Army is publicly saying that they don't have this policy. Whereas my experience and reporting on the Navy and the Marine side of things, both of those branches have have said, No, we don't have, you know, a policy on the books that says, you know, because of a red state, you can transfer. But spokespeople for both branches have said that they're reassignment policies that they already have on the books that were meant for transferring service members, for example, because of an abusive spouse or what have you can be utilized for transfers. Since we're talking about service member issues, you know, the other kind of crazy thing that I've been reporting on this week is the news coming out of the Navy SEAL program. So there's been if you guys haven't, haven't seen it, The New York Times has largely been driving this reporting of trouble in the Navy SEAL program, that the initial training pipeline, it's called buds, which is an acronym that stands for basic underwater demolition school. But that's the school that basically recruits go into to become a Navy Seal, there was a recruit a man by the name of Kyle Mullen, who died in February. And in the wake of his death, what has been revealed, both by Mullen's mother, speaking to the press, and the New York Times reporting is that the program is not only not doing a great job of taking care of its recruits, but that it's driving a lot of those recruits to either use drugs. So apparently, the use of performance enhancing substances is rife throughout this program, and that there's really not a whole lot of testing that goes on, and that there seems to be a growing conversation about whether the program, which is obviously famous for being incredibly tough, but that it's too tough, that it's so hard and so arduous that it's driving people to basically cheat, in order to pass.

Drew Lawrence

I've seen, you know, some counter arguments, you know, dangers aside about about the training about the cheating aspect, and a lot of people when they're talking about performance, enhancing drugs, like steroids and things that these candidates and seals are purported to be using, you know, some sometimes I see So what, you know, what, if they are using it, don't we want our, our elite warfighters to be as good as they can be? You know, what, why, why is it wrong to be using these?

Konstantin Toropin

Right? I mean, so and that's a good question to sort of explore. I think there's two major arguments I've seen crop up around that. One is obviously the health aspect. So performance enhancing drugs, obviously carry all kinds of side effects. They tax the heart, the you know, I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one on podcasts, but they're not great for you. And when we're talking about elite individuals, you know, on a mission, the last thing you want is to be having some weird heart palpitation while you're in a Blackhawk going somewhere terrible, right? The The other aspect, which is a little bit more 30,000 foot, it gets to a broader issue we've had with the seal community writ large, and that's the ethical aspect of it right? If you've got a Navy SEAL that feels that he is above the rules that the rules don't apply to him. That cheating is okay. And I'm going to use these performance enhancing drugs even though the Navy ordered me not to or says can't that calls into question. You know what other orders Navy rules that service member may feel empowered to override down the line when we're talking about the Navy SEAL community with shadows of Eddie Gallagher and other documented evidence of for lack of a better term allegations of war crimes or allegations of abuse given that history. We also have Navy SEALs so early in the pipeline, like even before they earn their Trident already choosing to ignore rules.

Rebecca Kheel

Well, thank you so much, guys. I thought this was a really good conversation today. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. Be sure to tune in next time.

Drew Lawrence

Thanks, Rebecca. Hey, I want to thank you so much for listening to episode five of Fire Watch. I also want to thank executive producers Zach Fryer-Biggs and Amy Bushatz, as well as my co-host, Rebecca Kheel, and our wonderful guests. And if you have any questions or just want to reach out, send us an email at podcast@military.com. Thanks for listening.